Итальянцы в России

[иванов]

отсюда.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IauACpJx7E
Это трейлер какого-то невнятного фильма.
Самого фильма не нашел

Эта сволочь обитает по адресу
http://www.igordindia.com/
судя по списку его "друзей"
 :: www.novgaz.ru ::  :: www.nizamtv.com ::  :: www.peacereporter.net ::  :: www.lafinestrasulparco.it :: 
считает себя писрепортером. По мне - пис-бой.
Прикидывается итальянцем.

Пока вопрос - это кто? В его фильме английским голосом с милой улыбкой на пухлых щечках вещает что "это было убийство". Но по акценту - наша правозаshitница.

Сам фильм вроде по ссылке....но в итальянском я ничего не понимаю
http://www.docvideo.it/scheda.asp?id=545

Судя по всему, кроме известным нам кадров, там еще добавлена "правда" от правдазаshitников и кадры подрывов наших бойцов (типа как пример "революционной борьбы").

[Leon]

Пока вопрос - это кто? В его фильме английским голосом с милой улыбкой на пухлых щечках вещает что "это было убийство". Но по акценту - наша правозаshitница.

Браво, Иванов! 5 баллов!.

Это вот кто:


Видел ее живьем на гастролях Литвинович и Савельева в Питере

[иванов]

Почему то я не удивлен.
Наверное потому, что она саму себя цитировала.... или Литвинович.... 

Я, кстати, так и подумал, но не стал искать фотки. Уж больно жеманно, с полоумной улыбкой она говорит.
Заложники, интервью которых я видел, так не говорят. Я думаю, что многие их них отказываются вообще разговаривать с "независимыми репортерами"....

[Leon]

А какие хари знатные!

[иванов]

А какие хари знатные!

Лично я - не физиономист. Но все, кто приходит на "свабоду" - для меня хари.

[Leon]

Кстати, недавно где-то читал или на видео видел, что штурм снимал какой-то пацан из окна квартиры 37-го дома.
Он был дома с матерью и торчал всё время в окне с камерой, рискуя поймать пулю.
Надо вспомнить

[иванов]

Это сюжет - на одном из "твоих" видео. Но это - не его съемка, по-моему. Он там снимал с того же дома, где Беляков сидел.

[igorazzo]

Hi everybody,
I am Igor D'India, director of the movie "Beslan's Window". I saw on my website this link and I wanted to join it, even if it's very hard to translate ciryllic to me  .

First of all I would like to say that the woman speaking in the trailer "1200 hostages, and all weapons they used during the fight...it's crime...it's killing" it's not me (I am a man anyway), but Elena Milashina, journalist of Novaja GAzeta (in the movie it's shown her name and job of course, but that one is only a short trailer).

She helped me a lot for the investigation about the tragedy, mostly about Shmell and stuff like this.

If you are interested in asking me something or just explain your point of wiew (in english of course ) , I'll be glad to answer, when it's possiblle or just sharing opinion with you.

In the movie there are many interwiews, from Torshin (president of the investigation commission set by Putin) to GArry KAsparov that I interwied during his visit in Beslan.
Anyway,it's my duty to say that who is interested  can buy the movie on www.docvideo.it and if they don't sell it abroad can order a copy directly to my staff on igorazzo@hotmail.com, we send it worldwide by UPS.

The movie is in original language (mostly discussions are in russian but few people and narrator) and italian subtitles. I'll make an english version soon anyway.

there is a longer trailer on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_vyZBfFtQg

I hope to have nice and interesting discussions with you all.
Best regards

Igor D'India

p.s I've seen now Elena's picture, somebody correct it , I understand it was difficult to recognize ;o)

[Admin]

I kind of surprise to see you, Igor, here.

Anyone is welcomed to this place where few "russians"  have started to sort out Myths and Facts about Beslan.

Why I said "russians" - because I don't know all these people personally. And we live in different countries (even Russia itself has many countries inside as you know). But we all were born in USSR and speak Russian. So I used "russians" in same way as you - in the "west" - use "kozaks"   

What I can not promise is that your hope to have nice and interesting discussions with us all will be easy to fulfill.

Why? According to rules it is prohibited to make references to Milashina's "expertise" and "analysis". Sorry.
We are kind of Myhtsbusters but due to our limited resources and time we can not deal with each and every myth and/or absurd. So we have to limit ourselves on real Myths (hm... sounds funny).

BUT!!!! Freedom of Speech is the First Priority here. Indeed (reyndar). Just rember that freedon of speech doesn't mean to be free from common sence in your free speech. Also free opinion should be supported by knowledge, facts and responsibility - otherwise it is considered a myth here (as best).

This place is intended to exists in Russian language only - as problem and solution is a Russian one anyway. But none of other languages prohibited.

PS. If it makes you feel better - Elena Milashina is not alone in the list   

[igorazzo]

Hi Admin,
well, let's see, it sounds like "welcome home but do not use the toilet and not step foot on my rooms" 

I'll consider this. Of course, because I don't know russian language more than barely ask a bottle of water, I could not imagine you are talking of "true myths", specially about a fact like Beslan (even if I have heard more myths than real-sounding truths, I don't know if you have ever heard the official commission version of facts, it was better of Charlie Chaplin movies )

Anyway, about my knowledge about Beslan I am quite safe to have found good theories while making the movie, but because here they risk to be  considered myths , I think I won't talk about it.

Just wanted to see how you russians (I never said kozaks in my whole life  ) are talking of this fact.

Thank you for your welcome and for  your informal warning  I will consider it.

Best regards
Igor

P.s In which list Elena Milashina is not alone? the list of people of whom expertise and analysis are prohibited?

[Radi]

Hi, igorazzo.
I understand that you are engaged in the theme of Beslan.
If is it your not non-permanent work, ask to report where is it possible to meet with other by your works on this topic?

Radi

[igorazzo]

Hi radi,
I work as a moviemaker and documentarist, Beslan is only one of my works, but I have spent more than 1 and half year on it, now I wanted to know better the envolving of russian people opinions.

Sorry but I did not understand your last question? What did you mean?

[xocnuc]

Sorry but I did not understand your last question? What did you mean?

where can he find more of your work (unfinished work, movie clips that did not make it into the final cut, photographs, etc.) related to Beslan incident?

[Radi]

Do I ask, do you have yet works on Beslan?
Radi

[igorazzo]

There was a very big gallery on www.beslan.ru, than on www.novgaz.ru there was a gallery with the official pictures.

About video clips I'll publish something on you tube about the meeting Kasparov-mothers in the school on July 2006. It's very interesting and hard.

I have also other footage but I have to take a look. I'll tell you as soon as I publish it on you tube.

Of course my own footage is AFTER the accident, I wasn't there when it happened. The tragedy footage comes mostly from NTV.

I would publish the official interwiews but first let me check my authorization about it. Anyway the best parts are in the movie.

[иванов]

Hi Admin,
well, let's see, it sounds like "welcome home but do not use the toilet and not step foot on my rooms"  ;)

Not really. I think he means that any guest is welcomed as long as he respects the rules of engagement 

even if I have heard more myths than real-sounding truths, I don't know if you have ever heard the official commission version of facts, it was better of Charlie Chaplin movies

We listen to everything and everybody. Then we place Facts to the right side and Myths to the left side (some go to trash).
Torshin's Doklad will be posted here after I convert it in readable form. Some idiots created Appendix of Doklad in forms of scanned images of plain texts. So instead of 100-200 Kb total it is over 40 Mb in size. And couldn't be used in quotes.

Anyway, about my knowledge about Beslan I am quite safe to have found good theories while making the movie, but because here they risk to be  considered myths , I think I won't talk about it.

Don't worry. You can place any theories here. They will be placed to right ot left depending on facts you attached to your theory.

Just wanted to see how you russians (I never said kozaks in my whole life  ) are talking of this fact.

Mass Media is considered as Weapon of Mass Destruction here. 

Thank you for your welcome and for  your informal warning  I will consider it.

"If you warned in advance - you are armed in advance"
Just one more informal warning. The difference between Admin and иванов is very simple. Admin is always right (and kills without warning). иванов has same rights as others and all his opinions are subject to severe critisizm and laugh.

Best regards
Igor

P.s In which list Elena Milashina is not alone? the list of people of whom expertise and analysis are prohibited?

Поправка номер 1 или 2 к правилам. Why? See topic about Оружие под сценой.

[Admin]

There was a very big gallery on www.beslan.ru, than on www.novgaz.ru there was a gallery with the official pictures.

About video clips I'll publish something on you tube about the meeting Kasparov-mothers in the school on July 2006. It's very interesting and hard.

I have also other footage but I have to take a look. I'll tell you as soon as I publish it on you tube.

Of course my own footage is AFTER the accident, I wasn't there when it happened. The tragedy footage comes mostly from NTV.

I would publish the official interwiews but first let me check my authorization about it. Anyway the best parts are in the movie.

Поправка 2 к правилам.
http://www.reyndar.org/beslan/forum/index.php/topic,11.msg463.html#msg463

[Leon]

Я как собака - всё понимаю, но сказать не могу (по английски).
Дайте igorazzo почитать милашинский бред про вертолеты. Может поймет, с кем он имел дело.
А из клипов прежде всего интересуют кадры с действием (спецназ, местные, пожарные etc.).
Каспаровские "позы" - не интересуют. Рассказы про "огнеметы" - тоже.
Такое ощущение, что человек пришел раскрыть нам глаза, поведать сокровенную тайну.
И ведь искренне верит в то, что ему наплели Милашина с Каспаровым

[xocnuc]

I have also other footage but I have to take a look. I'll tell you as soon as I publish it on you tube.

we are only interested in original footage from the school during and after the attack, and first-hand interviews, not accounts or opinions, much less political opinions, of other people who weren't in Beslan when it happened.

[Radi]

И ведь искренне верит в то, что ему наплели Милашина с Каспаровым

Скорее всего - именно верит (и хочет верить).

[Admin]

Igor

There is nothing personal in black list membership.
As I said - the pile of myths is so huge (and everything is considered as "myth" by default) that we have to sort out a clear shit  in the first place.

That's why Kasparov's opinions are included in black list. He has neither military, interrogating, medical nor any other special training. In some way he has "insurgency" expertise - information manipulation etc. - but this just moves him to catergory "Террористы" here.
But if you have any information that terrorists or shtab members played chess in Beslan - Kasparov's commments would be more than welcomed.
For his political opinions he has his own place and team of supporters.

So one more (last) time - feel free to talk about any theory. But you have to back it up by something solid - your own knowledge, images, documents etc.

Like you said - Torshin's Doklad is more funny than Chaplin's films. What is funny - Torshin's name, list of weapons etc? And why?
You have some expertise in film production - so your opinion about Chaplin work has a solid base. But have you been a member of Parlament Comission? SEAL (or whatever spetsnaz is called in Italy) unit commander? 
Игорь.

В составлении черного списка нет ничего личного.
Как я сказал уже, куча мифов (а по умолчанию вся информация считается мифом) настолько огромна, что сначала отсеивается явное дерьмо.


По этой причине мнение Каспарова занесено в список запрещеного. У него нет никакой военной, следовательской, медицинской или другой специальной подготовки. В некотором смысле у него есть "диверсионный" опыт - в части манипулирования информацией. Но по этому критерию он попадает в категорию "Террористы" на данном форуме.
Но если у тебя есть любая информация о том, что члены банды или штаба играли   в шахматы - мнение Каспарова будет нам очень интересно.

Для своих политических взглядов у Каспарова есть свое место и куча сторонников.

Итак, еще один (последний) раз - имеешь право выражать любую свою теорию. Но ты должен подкрепить её чем-то солидным - своими знаниями, фото, документами и т.д.

Для примера, ты сказал, что доклад комиссии Торшина такой же смешной, как и фильмы Чаплина. Что там смешного - фамилия Торшина, список изъятого оружия? Почему?
 У тебя есть опыт в производстве фильмом - поэтому твое мнение о фильмах Чаплина имеет солидную базу. Но был ли ты членом парламентской комиссии? Может командиром "морских котиков" (или как их там в Италии зовут)?

[igorazzo]

hi everybody,
first of all I want  to tell you that I like your way to look for pragmatic things in avoiding just talking of bullshits.
It's necessary to ask for documents and any element could show what we are talking is true.

I found out a lot of footage about the tragedy, from the 1st to the 4th of september, but I can not show it on the web  (as the NTV contract says). In the movie there is a lot of that, even if I did not want to use something for my choise.

You are right, I am not a soldier, I have nothing to do with commisions and maybe I am not a genius in politic (this is the same that Pavel Danieljn from kremlin.org says about Kasparov in the movie) but I personally collected enough interwiews and documents (declarations of Foreign minister of the Cechen republic of Ickeria, declarations of Torshin himself  to us about so called "dark points" of the siege, declaration of Kulaev at the process which was in Vladikavkaz during our permanence in North Ossetia, pictures taken during and after the storm and so on)  to be considered, at least in my country one of the most informed people about the facts.

I want to underline that I worked not for make  anybody appearing ridicolous or stupid,it' not my job acting like this,  even if sometimes it's been hard, but wanted to show the points of wiew of all the sides involved. I admit that there is something tragically funny in many of the interwiews we made (I quoted Torshin for istance cause he said that spetsnaz used schmell for snipering and I hope you know it's impossible even to shoot 25 meters far from the target or you can get killed), but I tryed to give the same space to everybody. As you say, freedom of speech. Of course there are strange things also in Kasparov, when he went to Beslan he said nice things but sometimes he looked like acting somehow.


There is so much to talk, I wrote a book about  it  (publishing within this year in Italy) and I really would like to share all these experiences  cause there are a lot of documentated information you can find interesting at least to make an opinion not based on myths that, as you said, mass media wanted to tell us. 

But as you can understand my will to make a movie and a book is also for avoiding to tell 20 hours per time all this story 

So I came into this forum mostly to understand your point of wiew. To analize the official and the unofficial points of wiew from all the parts involved (including the inguscetian people I interwied in Nazran) I am afraid you must see the movie, I can not show in any blog 29 hours of unedited interwiews or 15 hours of footage about the tragedy and war in Checnya  , it would be a new job and I already am very busy. 

I have understood that you marked Kasparov as a terrorist, Elena Milashina as a not actually expertise and have a black list where I am quite sure I could find some friend of mine  , it's enough to have a first idea of your position.

Just let me tell you something about this. Before marking anybody as a terrorist, listen to everything they have to tell you.
Meet them and let them talk. I talk and write only about people I met personally ore I have heard their answers to my questions. You will see everybody has two sides, even if they fight for something different.
When I saw Torshin's interwiew I found him as a very proud man, with a strong sense of duty, but sometimes he was so convinced that he has to defend his flag that he didn't even want to consider the other's opinions.
Kasparov too. He was to busy to make people believe that he was in pain for what happened that he started to underline too much his feelings and the result was not that spontaneus. But in 2 hours he sais also good things about the power in your country, about what happened to the hostages in Nord Ost and Beslan, about the situation in North Caucasus, that you all should listen at list to judge better.

It's not always necessary to be a moviemaker to say that a movie is a bullshit. It's not always necessary to be a pilot to say a driver does not run well. Of course you need expert's opinion to satisfy your ignorance on something you don't know in it...but than you can start walking on your legs.

I hope my opinion is quite clear on all this.

[xocnuc]

Igor,

We have the same problem as you are - a lot of material is in Russian; and it would be difficult to condense it into a short post reflecting all the facts, and showing all proofs of facts, and dispelling all myths.

Therefore, I can only give you a short summary and if you are interested, we can discuss each point further. We spent two years searching for clues and combing over testimonies, photographs and video of the events.

1. yes, Shmel was used on September 3rd. Not in the gym, but on the roof and second floor of the eastern wing of the school, long after the rescue effort started and after live hostages were evacuated from that wing

2. helicopters did not fire at the school, contrary to what Milashina was reporting on the day of the 3rd. In her words, "helicopters descended to the level of the second storey while shooting"; another myth claims that helicopters shot at the school with grenades. Both claims are untrue.

3. All major explosions inside the gym were initiated by the terrorists. There is no proof of involvement of any other party besides terrorists into the first two explosions separated by 23 seconds that occured around 13:03 03.09.2004

4. Tanks did not fire at the school with live hostages. There were only seven firing shots made on the eastern wing of the school starting at 20:56 pm, after live hostages were evacuated.

5. Contrary to what some believe and what others tried to make happen, Maskhadov did not intend to involve himself into direct negotiations with the terrorists. On the contrary, he tried to distance himself as much as possible from hostage-taking event in Beslan. There was not even a remote possibility of him arriving in Beslan on the 3rd or 4th, much to the dismay of the terrorists who may have hoped to be saved by him.

6. It is a myth that the official number of hostages as reported in press at the time stood at 354 for three days. There were reports, including those by the major russian news agencies Regnum and NTV from the morning of the 2nd of September describing much larger numbers (quoting 400+ children only, not counting adults) of the hostages. Official lists of missing schoolchildren were not compiled quickly because each name  in the district school administration list had to be verified with families.

If you have specific questions about other myths, feel free to ask.

[igorazzo]

Hi,
I have no questions about these points. I know them all.
i analyzed in the movie quite properly and I can  make you wonder new things. If ther is not absolut truth there is at least a peace of proof for all of them...

Anyway of that points I agree only that Mi 24 did not shoot directly on the school. I have images that they just fly above the building, ready to shoot,  not firing. But I was not there so I couldn't say  it's true or it's false.  The other points are quite differents from what I talk about in the movie...but the problem is always the same. I can not talk about that in a good way here. Let's say we can let people think other things by using pictures and expert opinions.

i hope you'll see the  movie soon, so that we can talk about it.
Your TV denied the access of the movie in Russia cause considered not interesting for the audience. Beslan is considered solved maybe!!

[иванов]

I found out a lot of footage about the tragedy, from the 1st to the 4th of september, but I can not show it on the web  (as the NTV contract says). In the movie there is a lot of that, even if I did not want to use something for my choise.

So you should have tanks and choppers firing at school? We have collected few gigs of photos - but not a single shot with firing tank

You are right, I am not a soldier, I have nothing to do with commisions and maybe I am not a genius in politic (this is the same that Pavel Danieljn from kremlin.org says about Kasparov in the movie) but I personally collected enough interwiews and documents (declarations of Foreign minister of the Cechen republic of Ickeria, declarations of Torshin himself  to us about so called "dark points" of the siege, declaration of Kulaev at the process which was in Vladikavkaz during our permanence in North Ossetia, pictures taken during and after the storm and so on)  to be considered, at least in my country one of the most informed people about the facts.

This is not a surprise to me at all. That's why I call mass media as WMD    And clicking button to jump between BBC, CNN and Al Jazeera is rather funny indeed.....

The point about personal experience with ... let's say explosives was not about who had  more rights to speak. But if you speak - please back up your opinion with something. Your opinion about RPO (or any other weapon) based on Milashina's opinion about any weapon .... well you are free to express it here but as best it will be ignored.

I want to underline that I worked not for make  anybody appearing ridicolous or stupid,it' not my job acting like this,  even if sometimes it's been hard, but wanted to show the points of wiew of all the sides involved.

I'm not sure that some sides have such rights.
If someone tries to explain to me why he has the right to kill me for some reason (no matter what his idea is) - why should I listen to?  Well there is one point to listen - for better target locating   

Of course there are strange things also in Kasparov, when he went to Beslan he said nice things but sometimes he looked like acting somehow.

Really? If so what the hell he was doing there - saying nice things or acting?

There is so much to talk, I wrote a book about  it  (publishing within this year in Italy) and I really would like to share all these experiences  cause there are a lot of documentated information you can find interesting at least to make an opinion not based on myths that, as you said, mass media wanted to tell us.

That's why I told you that any information here considered to be myth by default. No matter who told it - Pitun or Milashina.

But as you can understand my will to make a movie and a book is also for avoiding to tell 20 hours per time all this story 

Well, my aim is to make a kind of archive of facts - so anyone can make his own opinion.

So I came into this forum mostly to understand your point of wiew. To analize the official and the unofficial points of wiew from all the parts involved (including the inguscetian people I interwied in Nazran) I am afraid you must see the movie, I can not show in any blog 29 hours of unedited interwiews or 15 hours of footage about the tragedy and war in Checnya  , it would be a new job and I already am very busy.

Don't worry. You don't have to do anything here. At least for me this is pure "personal war".

I have understood that you marked Kasparov as a terrorist, Elena Milashina as a not actually expertise and have a black list where I am quite sure I could find some friend of mine  , it's enough to have a first idea of your position.

Not correct.
"In some way he has "insurgency" expertise - information manipulation etc. - but this just moves him to catergory "Террористы" here."
If I want to tell "he was moved to" - I would do so. But it doesn't matter on what side of barricades he is. What he knows about  Beslan - only that matters. And he doesn't know anything that I or you don't know.  At least I don't know any evidence that someone was playing chess there. So why his shit should be brought here?

Just let me tell you something about this. Before marking anybody as a terrorist, listen to everything they have to tell you.

First I would have to capture this "anybody". Then interrogation won't be a problem. Trust me 

Meet them and let them talk. I talk and write only about people I met personally ore I have heard their answers to my questions. You will see everybody has two sides, even if they fight for something different.

So what? People met brave knights who met and killed dragons. Personally. What a better witness could be? Others wrote about sailors who reached the edge of the world and saw elefants carring the world 

When I saw Torshin's interwiew I found him as a very proud man, with a strong sense of duty, but sometimes he was so convinced that he has to defend his flag that he didn't even want to consider the other's opinions.

Was he acting?

Kasparov too.... But in 2 hours he sais also good things about the power in your country,

Nice joke 

that you all should listen at list to judge better.

Why? What does he know about my country? He was living in another - virtual - world  and he is living there now. I've started to work when I was 14. Do you think I know my country less than he does? I'm very much doubt. And I'm listening too - that's why he is in black list.

It's not always necessary to be a moviemaker to say that a movie is a bullshit. It's not always necessary to be a pilot to say a driver does not run well.

Agree. Everyone has the right to have opinion about movie. But if I say that frame rate and codec used in your movie are wrong (bullshit) - then you have good reasons to ask me what I know about codecs, right?  And if I can not prove my opinion - it's my bullshit  not yours and your codec is most likely right.

So here I'm trying to  deal  with not just opinions but with something more solid.

Of course you need expert's opinion to satisfy your ignorance on something you don't know in it...but than you can start walking on your legs.

Sorry I'm not that good in medicine so didn't get your idea.

I hope my opinion is quite clear on all this.

Have you been banned recently? 
Just a joke.

[иванов]

Igor.
You don't have to translate it - just see pictures and enjoy.
This is about hidden weapon. Made by Greece reporter.

http://www.reyndar.org/beslan/forum/index.php/topic,49.0.html

[иванов]

i analyzed in the movie quite properly and I can  make you wonder new things. If ther is not absolut truth there is at least a peace of proof for all of them...

I'm waiting for. And I guess others are waiting as well.

Anyway of that points I agree only that Mi 24 did not shoot directly on the school. I have images that they just fly above the building, ready to shoot,  not firing. But I was not there so I couldn't say  it's true or it's false.

What do you mean by saying "fly above building"?
Above school or just above some buildings (or you mean they also flew below)?
Do you have that footage?
What time was it? etc.

Same about "ready to shoot not firing". Have you see finger of weapons operator on the Fire button? Or how did you come to conclusion "ready to shoot"?   

We have a Mi-24 pilot here (with combat experience) - so would be interesting to here your opinion.

The other points are quite differents from what I talk about in the movie...but the problem is always the same. I can not talk about that in a good way here. Let's say we can let people think other things by using pictures and expert opinions.

Talk in a bad way. We are all here a kind of veterans of bad talks (from pravdabeslana.ru)

i hope you'll see the  movie soon, so that we can talk about it.
Your TV denied the access of the movie in Russia cause considered not interesting for the audience. Beslan is considered solved maybe!!

[/quote]I don't know such TV company as "Your TV" 
Well I have to admit I don't watch Russian duroskop at all. Can not watch for more than 5 minutes without getting sea-sick. All other channels - just enough to be aware of latest mental viruses been delivered by WMD 

Beslan solved? You kidding.
At least I know that Kasparov hopes to play his grand act in 2008 

[igorazzo]

OK people one by one,
I am glad there is so much will of sharing news here.

-first of all, before I forget, here there is the footage (it's a 49 minutes documentary for history channel they made mostly with NTV footage and CNN footage plus few interwiews) where you can listen to the official authority talking about 300 hostages in front of people and you will see the reaction of relatives which have the list of the missing people, the authority is a man called Zugaev if I don't remember wrong). It's been also confirmed by a journalist I interwied in Beslan, Murat Kaboev, he was there during the siege and brought the list to the press (he talks in the long trailer on you tube I gave you  the link yesterday).

-about the chopters. I told you I have footege of chopters flying above school and buildings, it's also in the movie I suggested you to see. They are "set to fire" cause loaded with machine gun and rockets...civilian chopters do not have such shit. I see you are in good faith but those chopters came from North Ossetian military bases from which leave raids on Cechnya, do you think they take off without weapons? I really don't think so.
Anyway if I am wrong it does not matter, I don't think they shot anyway...
So you here have a pilot? How many "rebels" Cechens have you killed? I would like to know your story.Is the governament giving you the right retribution and nice welcome back? Let me know cause we interwiewed members from the Soldier's mothers comitee and tehy did not talk well of this...

-About tanks, I'll send you soon a frame of the documentary where Kaboev shows pictures of  tank bullets found on Komintern street behind the school. Anyway if they did not use tanks let me understan how they totally distroyed one of the school's wing where several civilians died together with several terrorists of course.

-I did not say you have to talk people which want to kill you...but you said if you capture him interrogation  won't be a problem...have you been working for FSB or spesnatz or such polite people?
You should be interested in listening cause you won't never know their real opinion and you won't never be sure of it...even if you think to know everything.

-About schmel I actually have more than only talking abot RPO-Z RPO-A granades, FAE bombs,  and so on. I'll shortly tell you something (it's really long if you want I'll send you few frames but it would be better you to watch the movie). There are 4 pictures taken after the two explotions at 13:04. You can see hostages still alive trying to escape and dead bodies. If you look inside of it there is no fire, not even smoke, and no terrorists. It means that this picture has been taken after at least 10 minutes from the second explotion (the smoke is already gone). I'll send you those frames by email, I don't have any idea how to do it here!
You can see in the pictures where the two terrorists granades blew up cause the windows are totally broken from inside to outside.

But if you see all the other pictures the whole gym is burnig, you already know the effects.

Because I am not an expert of explosive I went to the local explosive experts of the italian army with experience in kosovo and bosnian mined fields .
I showed them one picture taken before the fire and another one where everything is burned.

So, first of all they watched the gymn plant. It has 4 brigth windows per side and one door. It had no glass on the windows but "plexiglas" a plastic material very proper for let the light in but very elastic and safer than glass (in case a ball strikes on it it does not beaks), and it proofs Kulaev lied when says that a russian sniper shot the terrorist holding the explosive cause it's impossible to see inside.

Plus the roof is also around 6 meters high and it's an important date.
When the granades exploded they found a lot of free space around to expand the wave even (even if the gymn is very small) cause the plexiglas windows have been ejected imediately on the garden (you can see in the pictures a lot of grey pieces on the garden, people also walk on them without breaking). There was no resistence to it.

So, this is the point: the more the explosive has the possibility to expand the wave, the less there will be heat.
Even if there was alluminium into the mines, it could not burned like that way.
Plus, if you see the wall inside the gymn they are full of holes...sharpnels and iron objects where inside the mines to kill the largest number of people.

What does it mean? That only a strong heat colud melt the plastic of the roof and burn all the hostages in that way...and RPO-A granades are perfect for  this...
Infact they are used, even if forbidden by the Geneve convention (but who cares, right?) they are often used in Checnya and in Afganisthan to smoke out troops from their bunker or to burn the tank's crews...
Only a sistem which uses NAPALM way of working can make that damage...and a RPO-A granade is made the same way (same sistem of Full air explosive bombs).



Is it enough? I hope that watching the pictures you will at least wonder about that.

-ivanov...what do you mean with "my personal war"? do you still need a war? it's not enough one?

Here it is.

From tomorrow I'll be abroad for working and very busy (Easter hollyday finished!!!).
Hope you to enjoy the forum.

Till soon

Igor

 

[xocnuc]

Igor,

When you are talking about Dzugaev numbers, you have to remember that the full list of hostages is not completed yet (he is speaking on Sept. 1st). In this Forum, section Сообщения СМИ ("Press") you can find references to news articles by Regnum (quoting NTV, two major Russian news agencies) who in turn quote the command center ("shtab") with data on 400 children, not counting adults. That news was published at 9:40am on September 2nd.

More than likely Mi-24 helicopters came from active Army or BB (analog of national guard) units. No one saw them firing, so Milashina lied when she said that they were shooting at the school. It is just one example of why you have to be vary of what she says.

'tank bullets' is an interesting expression that you used. It supports an observation that numerous witnesses confused BTRs and tanks. Machine-guns installed on BTR turrets (which they confused with tanks) were indeed firing at snipers hiding under the school roof during rescue operation. On the contrary, in total, only 7 real tank rounds were fired at the school, all into the east wing. The damage that you saw came in part from those rounds, which were all shot within one hour after dusk (around 21:00). At that time, there were no live hostages in the east wing.

Your description of RPOs used in Beslan is ridden with self-contradictory statements. First of all, there is no evidence at all that RPO-Z (РПО-З, cyrillic letter "З" (Z) stands for Зажигательный - incendiary) were used in Beslan. The fire in the gym that you are talking about started out very small under the roof shortly after the first explosions and did not enter the gym itself until about an hour / an hour-and-a half after the first explosions. Each photograph that you are referring to (and we saw them all, many times) contains camera info including the time when original picture was taken. Pictures with open fire between gym roof tiles were taken hours after the first blasts. Fragments of IUDs that terrorists used were perfectly capable of starting a fire, and they did. They are even more likely than regular ammo to start fires because of incomplete combustion of the explosive mix that may have not been industrially produced, but rather "home-made". And RPO-A, which is a thermobaric weapon (as opposed to RPO-Z) - a) was not used in the gym and b) does not ignite plastic or wood easily because a flash is extremely short-lived. In fact, RPO-A is sometimes used commercially to extinguish open flames, for example oil well and refinery fires. The thermobaric mixture does not contain "napalm" or similar material. please do not confuse RPO-A and RPO-Z in the field if you ever have to fire one - the tubes are identical and differ only by marking stickers.  Geneva conventions do not ban thermobaric weapons, in fact, they are in active development in several countries, including the US (check if Italy has any, I would be curious). The most recent version of american thermobaric explosive contains special fill material that creates secondary incendiary action because original thermobaric mix LACKS the ability to burn and ignite. 

references:

http://www.reyndar.org/beslan/forum/index.php/topic,14.0.html (on Shmel )
http://www.reyndar.org/beslan/forum/index.php/topic,24.0.html (on helicopters)
http://www.reyndar.org/beslan/forum/index.php/topic,60.0.html (on tank damage)
http://www.reyndar.org/beslan/forum/index.php/board,7.0.html (press reports 1-3 Sept., 2004)

[иванов]

Хоспис, как ты это делаешь? Я имею в виду чертовски вежливый ответ на столь "мудрое" сообщение от автора фильма. 

Такая куча глупейших мифов в одном посте - и такой подробный и обстоятельный ответ (и без ашибок).